JonWHUFC
3:31 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
VAR is not the problem, the problem is the lack of clarity around the rules and the idiots reviewing the footage. You watch the Football Show on Monday and Dermot Gallagher is on there explaining things and you still have arguments amongst the panel. Whether you have a fingernail offside or clear daylight you will still have borderline decisions If you need to review something for longer than 10 seconds it can't be clear and obvious. What is handball now? I don't know the rules so can't make decisions based on VAR as the guidance is unclear. The one thing they need to sort is the late flag. Fucking annoying and pointless.
|
goose
2:44 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
not sure they even looked at the foul, but if they did they'd have seen it started outside the box.
if they disallowed the goal and awarded the free kick thats fair enough.
they keep talking about his arm, but his knee was the other side of Ogbonna as well so looked offside to me.
anyway it was offside so they got there in the end.
for me it should be for offsides and clear/obvious errors, not checking every tiny touch on a player.
the crappy offside/handball laws make it very difficult to implement at the moment.
|
Far Cough
2:42 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
Trundle, without the "foul" he would have been plainly offside
|
ironsofcanada
2:41 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
Lee Trundle 2:28 Wed Dec 2
I guess I never saw anyone think it would get things 100% right all the time.
I had watched it go through growing pains in both hockey and the NFL and I know they adjusted the rules it was used to enforce and which rules it was used to enforce.
Depending whether people thought stoppages were okay, I thought like elsewhere, it could be used selectively and when the players knew the rules, it could be helpful for them and fans.
I knew people would dislike it early because they did elsewhere. Ruined a season in hockey, but there is happy medium now where you can't run the goalie but also a toe in the crease is not a disallowed goal.
Was never an all or nothing for me. Unless people could not abide the stoppages.
|
Lee Trundle
2:39 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
What about Ogbonna's "foul" that forced him into an offside position, goose?
Shouldn't that be looked at for another 5 mins as well to decide what to?
|
goose
2:32 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
VAR is fine, its the implementation thats shit.
the Villa 'offside' goal on monday took ages to look at - i could tell from first look that he was offside. Moyes said the same.
|
Lee Trundle
2:28 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
I'd say the vast majority of times they get things like that right (well, to the neutral). But there's always that 1 time (maybe even more) out of 100 that they'll get it wrong for the majority.
VAR will never be 100% accurate while a human is involved. And I think that's what a lot of people assumed it would be when it was introduced into (proper) football. That every decision would be the right one.
There was so much support for it, and I'm pleased people are coming round to the idea that it's a load of shit.
|
ironsofcanada
2:21 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
Lee Trundle 1:55 Wed Dec 2
No, sorry, the difference on one play whether something is an incomplete pass and fumble.
A player catches the ball and he gets hit and the ball comes out. If he is judged to have made "football move" in between it is fumble. If not, it is an incomplete pass.
It is reviewable but requires some subjectivity from the viewing official.
I guess my point is that is they handle it pretty well from a fans perspective despite some subjectivity because the rule has been made clear.
Inbounds or not is a pretty easy call like goal line technology.
|
Vexed
2:05 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
VAR is shit. It's not being used correctly. It's supposed to rectify clear and obvious errors but it's being used to give offsides by the width of a toenail and pend for any touch in the box regardless of it actually being a foul.
To fix this they need to have a margin or error for offsides, like in cricket, so that if a decision is within X distance it stays as the original decision otherwise it's overturned.
Penalties they need to take into account if the contact was enough to impede the player or make them fall over. Yellows dished out for dives.
Sorted. Will they do it? Nooo.
Fuck off.
|
Full Claret Jacket
2:05 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
The thing is that VAR in a lot of cases actually supports the simulation. They slow it down and show the slightest of touches and like the pundits say 'well he was touched so he was entitled to go down' . Same as the obvious backing in and falling down Kane does or the slight clip on Salah that sent him flying in the air and rolling around. Football was never a zero contact sport.
These aren't fouls and in fact Ogbonnas pull back on Watkins was more of a pen. Thing is that grappling and pulling goes on at every corner and free kick by all sides and it's ignored. VAR doesn't go near it as there would be load of penalties every match.
|
Lee Trundle
1:55 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
"Do you that offside in football is a harder decision to make than deciding when something is an incomplete pass or a fumble in the NFL?"
If you're talking about with video replays, then I'd say they were very similar. If it was an incomplete pass because it was caught out of bounds by millimeters then you're deciding them on pixels, just as you are with offsides.
|
icwhs
1:18 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
No
|
ironsofcanada
1:13 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
Question for those that know the NFL:
Do you that offside in football is a harder decision to make than deciding when something is an incomplete pass or a fumble in the NFL?
There is some subjectivity in the latter, like what is a "football move" but they still seem to please most of the fans with the decisions made.
I personally think the NFL have rules for a year and stick to them and the fans understand that when they see them applied.
I think one of biggest things in proper football is that you have rules, like that around simulation that are generally ignored. I think the way they apply VAR has been similarly inconsistent and that is what is ruining things.
|
Lee Trundle
12:54 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
Sniper 12:45 Wed Dec 2
"Football has gone in a weird direction"
I was suggesting this when pretty much EVERYONE was getting exciting over VAR thinking it was sliced bread.
I've always said, if you're going to introduce things into football, then it has to be able to be implemented all the way down through every division, down through every level. That's never going to happen with VAR.
And I'm not saying it doesn't work in the NFL. It does. But I had seen enough subjective decisions in that to know for a FACT it'll never work in proper football.
|
Bungo
12:48 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
Lee Trundle 11:16 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
"Not all of them would appear right to both sets of fans."
Fans generally (including us), are the very worst people to have any say in whether a decision was right or not. I am not a fan of any particular NFL team, therefore I can view any replay with an impartial eye. With this impartial eye, it seems to me that most decisions are good when there is an objective measure, e.g whether a player got a foot to ground for a marginal touchdown.
|
ironsofcanada
12:46 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
Lee Trundle 12:40 Wed Dec 2
"If there was no VAR, and the ref made the same decision he made as he did on the field, then I doubt no one would be even talking about it."
VAR or video replay. I think of the Rivaldo incident at the Korea World Cup and that is still talked about, without VAR being involved.
|
Sniper
12:45 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
The thing is VAR was meant to be to correct clear and obvious errors and to punish serious things the ref has missed
So you’re talking a blatant offside, an Henry handball against Ireland or an off the ball incident where a player deserves a red
What it’s turned into is a bunch of people looking for a reason to disallow a goal or to give a penalty. Linesmen in particular are now totally redundant - no point flagging unless it’s a clear offside and if it’s that obvious then the ref would spot it anyway. But now, for them, it’s better to not flag and let play continue and leave it up to VAR than it is to flag and cause a problem the other way round
It’s all a nonsense. What is really ridiculous is that tennis, cricket and rugby have all been using hawk eye and video officials for years so FIFA/UEFA/FA could and should have picked up some pointers on how to implement it from those who’ve experienced it. Especially rugby, which is a ridiculous game to officiate and where there are about a hundred incidents you can penalise all the time. Their stance is pretty clear - you have to be able to overrule the on field decision and if you can’t argue properly against it then the refs decision stays. End of.
Football has gone in a weird direction if the ref making a decision, then the ref checking their decision on a monitor then VAR telling them what to do then the ref trying to decide and then it all get in analysed again afterwards and mistakes still being made
It’s further muddied the waters it was meant to clear up, exacerbated by bringing in unnecessary law changes that make no sense too
|
Lee Trundle
12:40 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
You'd get Villa fans suggesting it should be a red card, and you'd get quite a few neutrals saying a yellow would be correct for Fornals for kicking out and connecting (regardless on how weak it was), and you'd get West Ham fans saying there was nothing there.
It's not clear and its not obvious thanks to VAR.
If there was no VAR, and the ref made the same decision he made as he did on the field, then I doubt no one would be even talking about it.
|
zico
12:31 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PNaNc3X6IK0
Perfect view of the Grealish incident. Surely the bloke at Stockley Park sees that and shou7ld retrospectively give a card to Grealish because it is a "clear and obvious error" from the Referee.
If I was Southgate I would show Grealish this clip and explain that it's the reason he misses the next England squad. Bloody cheat,
|
ironsofcanada
11:59 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
Lee Trundle 11:46 Wed Dec 2
Fair enough on that point. Fans have always disagreed and giving them more information they are going to have more to disagree about.
It does seem strange you would use that quote to respond to as it was about getting decisions right.
And then talk about plays in the NFL where video review has no part in the decision.
I honestly thought the point of the discussion was about whether fans agreed with using video to make decisions. In the NFL they generally do. I think because the league picks and choses what to review well (after some trial and error) and the fans are used to stoppages.
|
Lee Trundle
11:54 Wed Dec 2
Re: Has VAR made Football better in any way?
|
Just look at our game.
The Fornals/Grealish coming together:
Villa fans would say Grealish did nothing wrong with the Fornals incident and Fornals deserved to be shown a red for kicking out
West Ham fans would, rightly, suggest he's a diving cunt that falls over at every opportunity.
Villa's penalty:
Villa fans would say its an obvious foul by Rice and a blatant penalty.
West Ham fans would suggest it was never a foul, if never enough for him to go down like that.
Watkins disallowed goal:
Villa fans would argue he's never offside, and there was a foul by Ogbonna beforehand so it should at least have been a penalty.
West Ham fans would say it's an obvious offside, and there was never a foul.
All 3 were looked at heavily look at by VAR, and none of those have a nailed on correct decision (according to the fans). They're all subjective, which is exactly what you'd get with a ref making that decision on the pitch.
So why bother going through all that shit with VAR when a ref can and should be making those decisions?
|
| 
